jennylafleur | Art & Mystery of the Mantua Maker

I was reviewing my very scanty notes from the Sally Queen 18th Century Clothing review luncheon at Costume College and thought I should put down some of my thoughts... while I can still remember them. :>

The thing that made the biggest impact on me was Sally's emphasis on what she called "the art and mystery of the mantua maker".

She felt that as costumers we tend to try and copy extant garments too exactly – "Arnold has a seam there so I must have a seam there too". I’ve noticed living history people are the worst at this, feeling the need to document everything that is done.

We also want to standardize everything – "pocket hoops were this many inches wide" or "pleats were always done this width". In fact there is nothing so standard about extent garments & other primary sources. Sally showed us pics of several examples of un-evenness, imperfections and things that would cause a failing grade if you turned it in to a home ecc teacher. One of my favorites was a en fourreau back were the pleats were not even on each side, they didn't even match the pattern of the fabric - actually that was in

demodekvc's class I think. Still my favorite though. :>

As Sally pointed out, infact the key to reproducing clothing is learning the "art and mystery of the mantua maker". These garments were draped and made for individuals by individual seamstresses with varying levels of skill and education. The goal was always the same though: to look balanced and proportional. The Baroque period was obsessed about balance and it was reflecting in the ideal for clothes as well.

She suggested finding an extent dress your size and study it for the correct proportions. But beyond that to simply use common sense, physics and proportions when fitting, fudging and altering. All within the restraints of the technology and techniques of the time of course. (Something Hunnisett talks about in her book.)

Most of you probably already figured this out but for me it blew my mind. It makes so much sense, especially as she was showing garments that had solved fitting problems the same way I had (when the "documented" solution didn’t work for me) by just applying some common sense. It also makes sense to me in way some period patterns work for me others never do - some of those straps, sleeves, pleats or darts just don't work wit my proportions.

It’s also a very freeing approach to costuming. I walked in very nervous about how I would go about making a robe à la française, or even if I could and feeling the need to know lots of details before I could start. I walked out knowing I could do it with the skills I have now and moreover have fun in the process. I mean I'd already come the same conclusions as the above but I felt guilty about not being as accurate as I wanted. It was a relief to find out, in fact my thoughts are a period approach to the art of the mantua maker!! *does happy dance*

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I'm right there with you -- I had the same eureka moment when I took the class on draping the francaise with Janea Whitacre from Colonial Williamsburg. She stressed exactly the same thing -- they took a big piece of fabric and did whatever was necessary to make it work. It was really liberating watching her work! We draped right out of the fashion fabric; we put tucks where we needed tucks, adjusted seamlines where they were needed. She says she forbids her apprentices from using any sort of measuring device in her workshop, making them all use finger and handspans.

It was cool, b/c I'd already been moving there in my own sewing -- all of my seamlines are 1/2", and unless I'm drafting patterns I don't even bother to measure that anymore.

She stressed exactly the same thing -- they took a big piece of fabric and did whatever was necessary to make it work.

Exactly! It was the fabric that was precious, not the dressmakers time. Moreover, in the same way they didn't care if "coat" was spelled coat or cote, there was no standardized sewing techniques like we think of today. They did whatever made sense to produce a finished result. The notion of sloppy workmanship must have been quite different in the 18th century. I wonder what it was?

It was cool, b/c I'd already been moving there in my own sewing...
Me too! I'd already started to do just that but felt guilty about it, like I was cheating somehow. Liberating is definitely the right word!

Very interesting notes! I'm in complete agreement - I can tend to be overly fastidious, and yet I really appreciate when I see an outfit that has that "something" of balance/proportion/grace as opposed to a minor detail that might be "accurate" but doesn't keep with the spirit.
Also the comment about

demode_kvc's instructor not using measurements was fascinating! I can see where that would be very liberating indeed. Hmm...must ponder!

Yeah, Sally called that "Home Ecc Teacher Syndrome". :> My teacher (mom) was trained by a very good home ecc teacher so I laughed long and hard at some of her examples. I've had to unlearn some that stuff myself - 18th century mantua makers just didn't think in those terms!

That's really cool. I wish I could have heard her lecture. I tend to do thigs my own way... but I always feel guilty about it afterwards!

BTW... you have the niceset LJ layout that I've ever seen! Did you use a template, or did you come up with everything yourself?

Me too! Now go and live without guilt! *hee hee* I was just telling a friend, I think this approach is even more true in earlier periods, where is less evidence (extent garments, primary sources, pics) of what was really done. It has to be more common sense than strict documentation.

The real trick is getting into the minds of our forebears and come up with solutions that fit their thinking process. I always find it valuable when I go back to a previous era in fashion. When I go forward again I have a much better understanding of where the dressmakers were coming from. I could never have made the Bee Robe like I did if I hadn't known the 1780s robe anglaise so well. It's constructed so similarly. I also noticed the dress that went under it made a lot more sense after I'd been making 18th century gowns than before. The style had changed, but not the technology.

Makes me want to explore the 17th century a bit more to help with my understanding of 18th!

*blushes* Thank you!

I used the component template and tweaked from there. There are links in this entry:
entry (http://jennylafleur.livejournal.com/94373.html)

Beyond that I think the biggest change I made was to change the width of the layout - it's 70% or something instead of 100%. I think that was done in the same please as the header. It was so long ago I honestly don't remember what all I did. I can e-mail you the whole piece of code if you want it...

I have a vague memory of you saying this to me while we were still in CA... but my memory is shot right now. ;)

Anyway, I have to say that I started to come to similar conclusions after the Mara Riley class--but hearing this from another "big" name really solidifies the idea in my head. Not that I costume anymore, but this can be applied to many other facets of sewing (and not just sewing--other things too!) that is liberating. :) Thanks for sharing this (again...)!

Yeah, I tried putting this into words a few times while I was there and many more times afterwards. :> I hope it makes sense, I'm not sure I've said it right. I' think I may have done better in the comments. :>

Anyway... glad it was helpful! BTW love the icon! :>

I never really thought about it like that, but it really does make sense! No one is the same and the key is proportion. I must remember that from now one every time I get perfectionistic. :)

I'm learning that there is a place for technique but it has to be period technique not a modern way of thinking. The real key is proportion and fit, and in the 18th century balance.

Don't fall into the trap of what Sally called the "Home Ecc Teacher Syndrome"! :>

What you've hit on is what anthropologists designate as the difference between vernacular and academic design. One of the things that our culture has lost along with the "skill" of garment sewing, is the comfort level that allows everyday people to just... mess around with fabric. (There's a whole 'nother braindump in there about Burning Man, but that's different.) Instead, we trust the taste of professionals, and so mainstream fashions become as stilted and identical as they have been lately.

Argh, I think I need to go write an essay now.

True! We live in a world of "experts" and "professionals". The little secret is that sometimes the experts have no idea what they are talking about. :>

I think this has become my favorite soapbox to seamstresses - learn to think outside the box and just play around with the fabric! Better results and it's much more fun. Love that it's more period accurate too! :>

There's a certain amount of peer pressure about this. Usually, if a historical costumer deviates from the "accepted" model for a particular type of garment, she has to continually explain *why*.

Very true - whether the accepted model is accurate or not. :P

Exactly! This is particularly annoying to those of us who are interested in periods (such as the Viking Era) for which the accuracy of the "accepted" model remains very much under debate.

I guess in my case I took to my Mom's way of sewing, which was to use the fingers and eyes, take a nip here, let it out there, and just make it work as you go.

I am glad to see this method validated, as I was about to go nutty trying to "document" everything I've taken for granted all these years now that I've joined the SCA and want to take my work to a higher level. I think I will enjoy this method of doing, just doing it, not worrying about everything.

Art & Mystery of the Mantua Maker

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Thank you for sharing this.